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Post by Tiarnán on Sept 7, 2011 17:36:02 GMT -5
I haven't seen enough of Taylor to judge, but I don't understand your point. Does it really matter which of the two we've got, given that both (according to you anyway) can bring it in the ring? Your point was that Nattie doesn't bring anything other than her name, which just isn't true. At all.
'Liability' is just such an exaggeration. Nattie isn't a world class speaker, but she's not a walking disaster. I'd say she's above Molly actually. I loved her to death, but she was never comfortable on the mic, and she'd admit as much herself. In terms of character, Molly had the advantage of being active during an era when the women were given more of opportunity to establish just that. I'm sure they could have conjured something half decent up for Natalya had she been around at the time.
If we're talking about the diva's division, then a good quality group needs decent wrestlers at its core. It's a combination of both obviously, but Trish never would have been as big as she was had she not been in there with superior workers. If they want to establish a star in the likes of Kelly Kelly, which I think they do, then it's crucial to have someone like Natalya around.
It works both ways. Jazz and Molly relied on Trish for time and storylines, but without them and others Trish would have been at a dead end skill-wise and the 'Golden Era' never would have happened, because there's no way in hell they would have given that amount of time to someone with the skillset of Trish Stratus circa-2000, and above all the quality wouldn't have been a tenth as good.
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 7, 2011 17:51:57 GMT -5
No, my point was that Nattie didn't bring anything that Taylor didn't bring. Except her last name. Which is a valid pov. And yes, I have seen quite a bit of each's DSW and such work. 'Liability' is just such an exaggeration. Nattie isn't a world class speaker, but she's not a walking disaster. I'd say she's above Molly actually. I loved her to death, but she was never comfortable on the mic, and she'd admit as much herself. In terms of character, Molly had the advantage of being active during an era when the women were given more of opportunity to establish just that. I'm sure they could have conjured something half decent up for Natalya had she been around at the time. It didn't help Jazz much. And honestly, Molly was better at sitting next to the announcers and at least holding her own a bit. That stuff from Monday was terrible. I wouldn't care if it were an outlier. But it hasn't been. If we're talking about the diva's division, then a good quality group needs decent wrestlers at its core. It's a combination of both obviously, but Trish never would have been as big as she was had she not been in there with superior workers........ And conversely almost no one would have cared at all about Jazz and such without Stratus and Lita. Who are far less interchangable than someone so one-dimensional. |
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Post by Tarry on Sept 7, 2011 17:57:37 GMT -5
Tbh guys this thread was about a select few Superstars and Divas sharing their favourite matches, not about who's better or who's only there because of their name.
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Post by Tiarnán on Sept 7, 2011 18:06:46 GMT -5
No, my point was that Nattie didn't bring anything that Taylor didn't bring. Except her last name. Which is a valid pov. And yes, I have seen quite a bit of each's DSW and such work. And I get that; I just don't understand why you brought it up. Surely it would make more sense to argue that she should be in the place of someone like Rosa Mendes or Tamina or Kaitlyn, rather than someone like Nattie who actually offers skill and reliability? Fair enough if you found it terrible. Plenty of people disagree though, and one person not enjoying her commentary doesn't make her a liability. You're acting like giving Natalya a microphone is going to plunge the women's division into its deathbed, which is ludicrous. ...Which is why I clearly pointed out that it WORKS BOTH WAYS.  |
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 7, 2011 18:07:18 GMT -5
Tbh guys this thread was about a select few Superstars and Divas sharing their favourite matches, not about who's better or who's only there because of their name. Sorry about that.  Still love?  |
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 7, 2011 18:20:20 GMT -5
And I get that; I just don't understand why you brought it up. Because they were in DSW at the same time (even facing each other) and share very similar traits as performers. Surely it would make more sense to argue that she should be in the place of someone like Rosa Mendes or Tamina or Kaitlyn, rather than someone like Nattie who actually offers skill and reliability? I don't disagree here. Fair enough if you found it terrible. Plenty of people disagree though, Hardcore workrate smarks would like anything by certain people and dislike anything by certain others. Hell, a few are still trying to kid themselves that Benoit was framed. Think they'de have done that to nearly the same extent if Chris wasn't one of their idols? and one person not enjoying her commentary doesn't make her a liability. You're acting like giving Natalya a microphone is going to plunge the women's division into its deathbed, which is ludicrous. Reversable coma would be more like it.  We need Maryse to come back and kiss it to wake it up. And Kharma to give it impact. ...Which is why I clearly pointed out that it WORKS BOTH WAYS. First and foremost,  Substitute Nattie, Taylor, Melissa etc. for Jazz and it makes little difference. Substitute one of them for Trish and the smarks go wild while the crowds go silent and the merch sales tumble. |
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Post by Tiarnán on Sept 7, 2011 18:41:21 GMT -5
Because they were in DSW at the same time (even facing each other) and share very similar traits as performers. Cool, but I still can't comprehend how that backs up the argument that Nattie shouldn't be there, if that's what you're trying to get across. Angel Williams is talented and was in OVW with Mickie and Melina, but the fact that she was released and they weren't doesn't mean that their WWE runs should be picked apart. I just don't get your argument, in other words. I don't consider myself a "hardcore workrate smark", but I still found her commentary fun to listen to. The problem for me wasn't that it was bad, it was that it made her look too likeable. You're missing the point. I wasn't arguing that Trish wasn't first and foremost the star of the division, I was arguing that she relied in part on superior wrestlers. She brought the crowd response and the interest from management, and they brought a base upon which she could develop her skills and put on half decent matches. In other words there IS a place for technically skilled female wrestlers in WWE, meaning Natalya does offer more than a famous surname. Which I understand was your original claim, yes? |
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 7, 2011 19:04:19 GMT -5
Cool, but I still can't comprehend how that backs up the argument that Nattie shouldn't be there, if that's what you're trying to get across. Angel Williams is talented and was in OVW with Mickie and Melina, but the fact that she was released and they weren't doesn't mean that their WWE runs should be picked apart. I just don't get your argument, in other words. My point was the WWE has a love of heritage acts. Which Nattie is. And someone who was in their system at the same time and has virtually the same ability profile wasn't. I didn't bring up Angel here because she isn't the same style of performer Nattie or Taylor were. In other words there IS a place for technically skilled female wrestlers in WWE, meaning Natalya does offer more than a famous surname. Which I understand was your original claim, yes? I never meant to deny that Nattie is good in the ring or that you can use some workrate geared people in a division. * Rather my point was that someone else that was in the same system at the same time and had the same basic traits as Nattie save name was not even given a chance at formal WWE tv. Taylor's workrate apparently wasn't enough for her to get anywhere with the same upstairs people. Or even remain in the minors. * = Though I can understand from my wording in post #10 if that is how you took it up. |
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Post by Tiarnán on Sept 8, 2011 5:32:11 GMT -5
My point was the WWE has a love of heritage acts. Which Nattie is. And someone who was in their system at the same time and has virtually the same ability profile wasn't. I didn't bring up Angel here because she isn't the same style of performer Nattie or Taylor were. Yes, but she's also a 'heritage act' who can wrestle better than most of the roster (male or female), so I don't see the problem. She's not a Michael McGullicutty. Nattie actually brings talent to the table. It's not her fault WWE weren't impressed by Shantelle Taylor. Your initial points were that: a) she was relying on the 'smarks' and pandering to them by saying her uncle's matches are her favourites, and; b) Natalya doesn't offer anything beyond the name 'Hart'. I'm glad you can see how I'm utterly confused with regards to what point you're trying to make, but I still am tbh. Oh well. |
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 8, 2011 6:34:47 GMT -5
It's not her fault WWE weren't impressed by Shantelle Taylor. I don't believe I said it was. Your initial points were that: a) she was relying on the 'smarks' Her core audience. Along with Bret Hart fans. Who largely intersect with the former, as Bret tends to have a smarkier than average support base as compared to other stars of his magnitude. Putting the name aside jftm, if one doesn't think workrate is basically her sole attribute and audience aim, what else is there in terms of talent appeal drive areas? Not mic skills. Not charisma. Not character playing/attention. Not glance hot chick appeal. and pandering to them by saying her uncle's matches are her favourites, and; You first classified it specifically or solely as pandering. I'm not saying it's inconceivable she can't like Bret's matches. b) Natalya doesn't offer anything beyond the name 'Hart'. And ring workrate, as previously indicated. |
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Post by Tiarnán on Sept 8, 2011 6:46:25 GMT -5
Then you agree that the Shantelle Taylor thing is absolutely irrelevant? Cool.
If you weren't trying to get across that Nattie was pandering to the internet fans then I don't know what you were on about, honestly. I think we're seeing a pattern here. Make a point, disregard it later on and try to fit the argument to something else entirely.
Yes, her workrate is her best quality. Why is that something worth rolling your eyes about? It at least gives her something over most of the roster. That aside, she also connected with the audience well by Diva standards during her face run. People like her. When women like Eve Torres and the Bellas and Alicia Fox and whoever else struggle to get a speck of interest then that's worth something as well. And I'm not going into looks, because it's entirely subjective, but plenty of people find Nattie Neidhart attractive.
The actual wrestling is fundamental in creating a good division, and if that's mainly what Natalya offers then fantastic. They need someone like that, so why bash her for it? The bulk of the Diva's time is devoted to short matches, so I'd much rather have someone who can carry the weaker girls to something half decent than someone who struggles to string two moves together, regardless of whether or not they can talk on the mic. It's not like WWE gives their women hours of mic time.
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 11, 2011 16:47:40 GMT -5
I don't know what you were on about, That's been pretty apparent for several responses. I could say the same thing, tbh. I don't know why you've seemingly taken quite a bit of this so to heart. I suspect we approach things here from irreconcilable pov's. I think we're seeing a pattern here. Make a point, disregard it later on and try to fit the argument to something else entirely. Are you a psychiatrist and a psychologist by trade? That aside, she also connected with the audience well by Diva standards during her face run. Then those standards are pretty low. Save stuff in Bret country, her reactions usually didn't seem particulary strong at all. Getting something better than Eve is effectively meaningless. The actual wrestling is fundamental in creating a good division, and if that's mainly what Natalya offers then fantastic. They need someone like that, so why bash her for it? It's not meant as bashing. If I said she was a skank, a disgrace, or made quite personal attack style comments, I could more understand the defensiveness. As hard as you're trying here, can you honestly say there is any other talent based reason for her to be featured besides her workrate? It's not like WWE gives their women hours of mic time. They dont give them large amounts of ring time either. Which kind of negates your point here if you are judging things by anything else but a workrate > all else standard. Not to mention that they have recently released people who to one extent or another could work some but often had some real personality appeal to boot. I'd also add that while workrate matters, it's hardly always necessarily the cornerstone of a division. I like AJ Styles. But from what I have seen, he wasn't getting the segment ratings that Sting was despite being a vastly superior worker. And again, if Trish and Lita (example) had the same non-workrate abilities of Jazz, no one would have cared much at all. Otoh, Trish vs Lita was always a well followed feud. I'll grant that Trish and Lita were better workers than many current divas. But again, thats on the backstage errors made by the WWE for years. And probably a topic for highly detailed discussion at a different time. |
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Post by Tiarnán on Sept 11, 2011 17:28:57 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into all of this at this stage, but basically I think you came in here looking to bash Natalya (nothing new, really), realized that your initial posts came across as pretty silly and changed your argument. Now you're just choosing to run with this lets-use-the-word-'workrate'-in-a-negative-sense thing because you don't really have anything else going for you here. It's not a case of being a psychologist, I can just spot a weak argument.
You pretty much said straight up that Nattie doesn't offer much. My point was that there is always room in the division for someone who can carry inexperienced talent and help them to improve, hence my bringing Molly and Jazz into the equation. You can compare them unfavourably to Trish Stratus all you like, but they were key in helping her to move forward as an in-ring performer, proving that wrestling ability is important. Therefore, Nattie has a right to be there. Her being picked by WWE over Shantelle Taylor is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to this discussion. The fact of the matter is that she's a talented wrestler who can work wonders with the likes of Kelly Kelly, as was seen in her match with K2 on SmackDown. Futhermore, she has plenty of other qualities too, such as charm and a good work ethic. Is her wrestling ability her best quality? Yes, but I never denied that.
I fully suspect a long-winded, nonsensical response to this by the way, but please excuse me if I don't reply next time. It's not rudeness, it's just that I've said my piece pretty clearly I think.
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Post by Angelwings on Sept 12, 2011 3:10:17 GMT -5
Long-winded responses? ;D You act as if you've been anything but a willing partner and likewise guilty of such.
Considering your own at times physical style of posting, it's kind of puzzling to see you accuse someone else of bashing. But whatever.
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Post by Tarry on Sept 12, 2011 11:36:07 GMT -5
WWE Superstars' Favorite Wrestlers Alberto Del Rio:"You know, I always admired my father. That’s the reason I became a professional wrestler, because I grew up watching him and trying to be like him. So he was my idol – he’s still my idol – but if I were to mention a guy from here, I would say Undertaker. I have so much respect for that man as a performer and also as a person. It’s those guys: my father and Undertaker." Alex Riley:"The Rock. There’s no one better than the Rock. I know people say this all the time and people get on me for saying it a lot because everybody loves the Rock, but everybody loves the Rock for a reason. There’s nothing he couldn’t do. He was 6'5", 260 pounds. I played football at Boston College and he played football at Miami, so I kind of feel like I have something in common with him. He was so dynamic. When he would say he was “electrifying” he truly was. In the ring and the way he moves, there was never a moment where he even looked tired. Unless he was on his back, he was up and firing off. The way he spoke, and his delivery, the way he carried himself and the way he walked – everything he did was entertaining." Kelly Kelly:"Growing up I thought 'Stone Cold' Steve Austin was the man. Just everything about him... I would just stare at the TV when he was on, with mouth open just in awe, even to this day still. [When I see him backstage] I run up to him like, 'Oh my god!' and he loves it. We’ll talk and talk about wrestling – it’s really cool to pick his brain." Natalya:"The Superstar that I respect more than any other Superstar past or present would probably be my uncle, Bret “The Hitman” Hart. Personally, and professionally, he’s a huge role model for me. One thing that Bret has taught me in my life is to always stand up for what you believe in. Bret’s been really consistent. Whether you like him, whether you hate him, whether you have issues with him – even Shawn Michaels would agree that he is very consistent in his beliefs and he’s very passionate about what he’s fighting for. He’s always taught me to stick to my guns and my convictions and to be the best Nattie that I can possibly be." Wade Barrett:"Definitely the British Bulldog Davey Boy Smith. He was a hero of mine when I was a kid and probably one of the main reasons I became a WWE Superstar. The fact that he was from England, I loved that – I was a very patriotic guy as a kid. The British Bulldog was always the biggest and strongest of the guys back in the day, and I was always impressed with how cool he looked and how good his gear was. He came down with the dog and all that stuff. I just bought into the whole thing and he was my guy." Zack Ryder:"Zack Ryder. I have revolutionized the WWE. I’ve taken myself from nothing and built myself up to – well, I’m not really anything special right now, but I’m going to be there. I’m getting t-shirts made, the headbands made, all for this YouTube show that I started. I’m the Internet Champion – are you serious, bro? I’m the Internet Champion. I think I’m the man, and I think in a couple of years when you ask me that question I’ll have some more valid points for you." |
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We need Maryse to come back and kiss it to wake it up. And Kharma to give it impact.